Curse

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 21, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorebrex

Sont know where you people come from, Ive never found PvE "mindnumbingly wasy". Not terribly difficult, but far from easy.

You know, in a few other of the A.I. threads the complaints seem to change. In one thread, the A.I. haters will insist that no one is saying that PVE is difficult. In fact they say it's too easy. They kept insisting that I was full of crap when I said people found the PVE difficult.

Then in the other thread, people complain that it's too hard. And those people yell at me for even suggesting PVE is easy.

So among the people who don't like the A.I. they won't even acknowledge the other half of their camp. So it's really really difficult for ANET to change anything when one side of the issue can't even agree among themselves.

saphir · Nov 21, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

about the aggro from a completely new group from outside the aggro bubble..

i've seen this several times in nightfall, you can usually easily tell as the paragon or warrior will use some sort of shout, what's that common one they use... "incoming!" i think?

i always had the impression that anet had added a height advantage to their aggro calcualtions? that if a group is on a higher elevation than you, they "see" further and will thus run to attack you even if they are not within your aggro. That's just my impression though.. it could just be that those groups are scripted that way to attack if you come across a certain pt on the map or within a certain distance.

I always thought it was rather cool though.. especially before I realized that "incoming" was a paragon shout. I thought it added to the immersion that the enemy "scout" would alert the rest of the mob to be wary of my party since we were near but out of aggro lol

Tortoise · Nov 21, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

The 'agro' from afar is kind of annoying but nothing really gamebreaking. Did I lose a mission because of it? Yes, but that hardly triggered a /ragequit or even a /rant. I'm quite confident Anet will fix this soon enough. AI changes always take some time and stuff like this might be a bit more complicated then you would expect.

That having said I don't mind the new AI at all. It's made a couple new tactics interesting and it isn't that hard to figure out the gist of it. Once you've done that it's business as usual. I'm currently finding keeping aggro on a warrior much easier, AoEs alot more effective. Heck, I've even started taking Cynn along again. Not to mention that pulling has become more easy as well.
The fact that my henchies are now kiting more then the average pugger can also only be applauded.

For all those having trouble with enemies kiting away: try calling enemies and as soon as they start kiting away, call another one. In about 95% of the situations they'll turn back immediatly and you can switch back to them and finish them off. Haven't really tested it in any kind of farming situation (for instance when farming trolls) but it works smoothly in normal gameplay.

Seriously though: I'm not having that much trouble. I really fail to see what all the fuss is about...

Curse You · Nov 21, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I like the new AI. Keeps me on my toes, because they don't do the same thing every time.

Also, I LOVE how the update has reduced the number of Mo/W farmers in Elona Reach down to basically nothing. I hardly see Mo/W anywhere now.

I, on the other hand, am still able to farm gold, using my monk, at the same pace that I used to farm trolls.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 21, 2006, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Soggybottom

You know, in a few other of the A.I. threads the complaints seem to change. In one thread, the A.I. haters will insist that no one is saying that PVE is difficult. In fact they say it's too easy. They kept insisting that I was full of crap when I said people found the PVE difficult.

Then in the other thread, people complain that it's too hard. And those people yell at me for even suggesting PVE is easy.

So among the people who don't like the A.I. they won't even acknowledge the other half of their camp. So it's really really difficult for ANET to change anything when one side of the issue can't even agree among themselves.

You have a valid point there. One thing they all agree on though is that they (we) do not like the new AI changes. So regardless of the reason, there is a lot of discontent amidst some content. It just comes back to the age-old adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Many of us feel it's broke now and could use some fixing - or even easier, put it back the way it was until the bugs get worked out of the new code. At the very least someone official could tell us what's going on. I'd be a bit more understanding if someone from Anet would honestly tell us whether or not the monster and hero/hench AI are working as intended.

Even many of the people who don't mind or like the new AI have admitted that it is buggy and/or has some major glitches in their opinions. That should be a big red flag to the devs.

aohige · Nov 21, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ducktape

I was in Marga Coast yesterday and the first couple groups of Kournan Guards came running from the edge of my radar, charging at us. I hadn't been anywhere near them, as it was the beginning of the zone, and I had never attacked them, but they rushed over and tried to stomp me and my group.

Uh, duck, those kournans are a special case.
They have this enemy called "Kournan Spotter" who can aggro from more than double the aggro circle. They can spot your team from far away, and cause his team to aggro. That's their special ability.

If you were actually READING what the NPCs say, you would have found this out long time ago.

ducktape · Nov 21, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by aohige

Uh, duck, those kournans are a special case.
They have this enemy called "Kournan Spotter" who can aggro from more than double the aggro circle. They can spot your team from far away, and cause his team to aggro. That's their special ability.

If you were actually READING what the NPCs say, you would have found this out long time ago.

Not all of the groups had the spotters, and the aggro range was more like triple or quadruple from which they were charging me, but that helps to know that the spotters have double aggro range. Which NPCs say the spotters have double aggro? I always read what they say to me, since I like the story, and I do not recall seeing that.

I came over from Cantha, so very few NPCs would talk to me before I went to Kourna, since they only wanted me to do the Consulate Docks mission. All I've really heard is: go to consulate docks because we need to attack the Kournan army because Varesh is evil, take the forward wall, destroy the seige group, seize the bombard, kill the guards, oh noes they took koss and kormir, talk to this dude so we can find a sanctuary, he doesn't like us so go to talk to this other guy instead, hey I'm not supposed to talk to you but I guess you can have this cave full of monsters as your sanctuary.

Not much about Kournan Spotters

Gorebrex · Nov 21, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

@ Sid
I cant, and wont, speak for others, only myself and my experiences, But the chasing all over the map(was chased halfway around Perdition by Phantom before while trying to rez party. Count break aggro at all, and Im thinking there may be a timer, like if mob isso far outside bubble for so long, then aggro is broken. The thing that bothers me the most is the "radar-range" aggro. I JUST got within radar range, and something starts chasing me, even though Im way over on the other side of the radar. That needs fixing. The kiting can be dealt with, but the insta-aggro has to stop.

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 21, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Those issues definately need to be fixed. Hopefully soon. I still do think that the overall A.I. is an improvement over the old one though.

Velath · Nov 21, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

I had another fun experience yesterday night. I was down in the Depths of Madness going after a sin elite and was frustrated several times by the aggro range.

What happened was at one point you cross a bridge, and if you're not careful you'll attack one group and can have 1 or 2 patrolling groups come aggro you (and one of the patrols has a huge circuit). Whatever, half my group got wiped, flagged everyone back (being the hero that I am, I *coff* sacrificed myself so Dunkoro could run away!). I figure no big deal, they'll run lose aggro, and can come back and rez me when they had the chance. Well I'd flag them WAY back, the baddies would quit following and I'd wait for a bit till the patrol started moving on their normal path I'd bring my group forward. As soon as they hit a certain spot (roughly a radar away) the monsters would instantly start charging towards them. I did this a couple of times and even took a 5 min break of just sitting around to see if it would happen. No luck, they never quit charging back at the heroes. So I sent them in and let them get killed... Of course there happens to be a rez shrine just ahead of the bridge where we popped up and were quickly set upon by the same group (and another patrol...D'oh).

I resigned and just took it a little slower and it went fine, but is it ever a pain when you have no chance of losing aggro, I'm glad I was only like 15 mins in in the first place. But still, this seems a bit too extreme. I like the AI combat updates, but I'm hoping there's something buggy with the aggro!

mr_stealth · Nov 21, 2006, 11:10 PM // 23:10

I wouldn't say that the new AI is overall harder or easier than the old one, just strange and unpredictible. Sometimes enemy group might decide to all work together and try to insta-gank the same person, keeping on that same target till they're dead. To me this seems a lot like the older AI, but with a little more intelligence/coordination in target selection. The AI always did prefer going after a soft target instead of a steel plated one, but now I have noticed that enemies are more likely to un-aggro from a tank and go after someone else. This could make some mobs more of a challenge and require a little more tactical thinking to protect casters, but I don't see it as being a lot different than the older AI.

On the other hand, I have seen situations where the enemies will constantly swap targets, only hitting each new target one or two times. That isn't any challenge or fun at all because they don't inflict any real damage to any of your party, and all you are doing is chasing them around in circles. Sitting back as an ele watching your party's warrior chase around an enemy warrior can be amusing, but its just annoying when you are that warrior.

For me the most frustrating thing is the overly sensitive fleeing AI. Monks running from warriors that are close to killing them is fine, but a pair of lvl 28 warriors with full health running away from an assassin that hadn't even touched them is just stupid. I started using a hex snare because enemies just run if I get anywhere near them.

I have also seen quite a few of the thing others are complaining of...Leeroy monks on the rescue Koss quest...mobs aggroing at very long range(even without any Kournan Spotters)...unbreakable aggro...I even had a hero run at a mob that wasnt on my radar because a siege attack hit us.

MrTwisted · Nov 21, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

The way that casters now leave there group is what I find most stupid. Its usually the necro, mes and healers that I find follow the longest (tho ones that should never go it alone) they chase and just dont give up. You notice it if you run anywhere, you get a trail of mixed casters that have collected from mobs you passed in the zone lol.
They leave there fighter classes far behind and continue to chase far across the map even when you use a speed boost of some sort and this is where it all falls apart.

A slight skill change now has me with a cripple skill on my bar and a speed boost of some sort. I have team wait further back (new flag system allows it to be done easily with hench tho better with a second person), aggro a mob and retreat using speed boost once you use speed boost most enemy fighter classes return to their original location or stop while casters continue to chase. One or two speed boosts is enough while heading back to team then turn and cripple caster. He has no support and is dead in seconds then enemy fight classes have no casting support and die quickly after that.

Ok this dont work with all monster types but is still a stupid way to play and it works in most cases.

All this AI agro thing has done is drag things out. I like some of the changes but it still needs tweaking as it is easily abused (in some places).
Farming tho a little slower is prob more easily done now. Solo or 2 man farming has always been done but mostly by more hardcore players (of which I am not), but I find that now being able to split the enemy mobs allows easy farming of other areas that were a bit tricky for more average players.

Regarding res skills : I find you have to pull mosters a good distance if you think you are going to need to make any use of any res skills (ie you see a difficult fight ahead and may need to run), as already posted most of the time you cant get anywhere near a dead body to res it, even If mosters are just on radar its enough to bring um running. At least if you pull them a distace they sometimes fall back a bit when you flee/team dies (of course this depends on you being able to break agro in the first place).

Myself I used to like the fact that someone in the team could survive and run away to then return and res team to get some revenge. Now its mostly a case of one person survives... can do nothing due to massive aggro so ends up killing themself on purpose so we can all res at the shrine, yay more DP.

MrTwisted · Nov 21, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

The way that casters now leave there group is what I find most stupid. Its usually the necro, mes and healers that I find follow the longest (tho ones that should never go it alone) they chase and just dont give up. You notice it if you run anywhere, you get a trail of mixed casters that have collected from mobs you passed in the zone lol.
They leave there fighter classes far behind and continue to chase far across the map even when you use a speed boost of some sort and this is where it all falls apart.

A slight skill change now has me with a cripple skill on my bar and a speed boost of some sort. I have team wait further back (new flag system allows it to be done easily with hench tho better with a second person), aggro a mob and retreat using speed boost once you use speed boost most enemy fighter classes return to their original location or stop while casters continue to chase. One or two speed boosts is enough while heading back to team then turn and cripple caster. He has no support and is dead in seconds then enemy fight classes have no casting support and die quickly after that.

Ok this dont work with all monster types but is still a stupid way to play and it works in most cases.

All this AI agro thing has done is drag things out. I like some of the changes but it still needs tweaking as it is easily abused (in some places).
Farming tho a little slower is prob more easily done now. Solo or 2 man farming has always been done but mostly by more hardcore players (of which I am not), but I find that now being able to split the enemy mobs allows easy farming of other areas that were a bit tricky for more average players.

Regarding res skills : I find you have to pull mosters a good distance if you think you are going to need to make any use of any res skills (ie you see a difficult fight ahead and may need to run), as already posted most of the time you cant get anywhere near a dead body to res it, even If mosters are just on radar its enough to bring um running. At least if you pull them a distace they sometimes fall back a bit when you flee/team dies (of course this depends on you being able to break agro in the first place).

Myself I used to like the fact that someone in the team could survive and run away to then return and res team to get some revenge. Now its mostly a case of one person survives... can do nothing due to massive aggro so ends up killing themself on purpose so we can all res at the shrine, yay more DP.

Eviance · Nov 22, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Over all I too agree that the AI changes are good but I know there are bugs in it and till I see them fixed I wont be happy. All the "true" bugs have been stated repeatedly and what makes it obvious that they are bugs is that not everyone is having this issue, its random and happens to some people never and others every time they zone in with some baddies.

I cannot believe that the AI is working fully as it was intended. For some reason I also now whish I knew what it felt like for all those people that never experienced the lag and err 7s and called a whole bunch of people nuts... I mean it must be great to never have any issues (no sarcasm intended)... Heck even Anet said we were crazy and then came back to say: Whoops server maintanence time!
Yeah I have whined about senseless stuff in the past but I have learned to pick my battles - I'm just going to do as always and post what I see as bugs till they get fixed and then I'm going to read the millions of posts about how they broke something completely different -_-